In which we chat about the post-Endor war situation but really TFA

If you’re new to Eleven-ThirtyEight this may be the first real Aggressive Negotiations piece you’ve seen here—unlike most of our content, Aggressive Negotiations are raw, largely unproofed live chats among our staff and occasionally others. Being so very off the cuff and unscripted, they can sometimes get a little out of control (this one in particular tops out at over seven thousand words, which just might make it the longest piece on the site), but the goal is to present fandom in its most pure form—and this is absolutely that.

Today’s topic: the post-Endor political status quo, prompted by the latest round of The Force Awakens bits and pieces from Entertainment Weekly and elsewhere. I couldn’t make it to this one myself, and in fact as of this writing I haven’t even read the damned thing yet, so this ought to be fun for all of us. Force Friday ahoy! – Mike, EIC

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Sarah: I thought it was interesting that the Empire article seems to imply that the First Order isn’t actually the Imperial Remnant like we were assuming

Sarah: But is instead some sort of galactic Golden Dawn

David: yeah, the neonazi simile we mentioned in Twitter seems very accurate

Rocky: And it makes me wonder if maybe the Empire decayed fast.

David: a bunch of brats that haven’t lived under the Empire and have an idealized version of it

David: Kylo Ren and his people sure sounds like neo-Sith wannabes, at least

Sarah: Oh definitely. That’s been my pet theory since the first teaser and it looks like it might play out that way.

Rocky: the wannabes thing is something kind of interesting. they don’t know what the old Empire and old Sith were like and don’t believe people who tell them how it was.

David: I wonder if it’s closer to the Legends scenario than anyone could have expected

Jay: That was my initial thought with the First Order, especially before I saw their advanced tech. Although I suppose I’m just assuming their tech is advanced just because it’s streamlined, but that could be just modernizing.

Jay: I’m reminded a lot of LotF — a series I did not finish — which featured those damn kids nostalgic for the Empire but who had no idea what it was like

David: you have warlords for a while, then they seem to die down… and suddenly someone new appears and unifies them. only this time it’s Snoke, not Daalalleon

Rocky: Ahaha, yes.

Rocky: Someone who may remember the old Empire but has all these visions of how it could have been a much better thing.

Sarah: And I have to wonder if there is a Pellaeon-esque character (Rae Sloane perhaps) who eventually looks to come to some sort of diplomatic agreement with the New Republic

David: only this time what he unifies are the descendants of those old Imperials

David: because the time frame is larger

Jay: Sarah you did not just call Sloane Pellaeon-esque

David: ah yes, the New Republic. I gotta admit I was surprised when I saw it mentioned in Battlefront (I think)

Jay: that is the cruellest thing you could say

David: I kind of assumed TFA was going to go on a wildly new direction

Sarah: disclaimer: I have not read many Legends books, especially post-RotJ legends

Jay: Ah. Well Pellaeon is a coward, a traitor, and a fascist.

David: showing a restored Galactic Republic or even still a Rebel Alliance

Rocky: I feel like if we get a Pellaeon, it’ll be Sloane. She is being kind of pitched as the Imperial who’s not a bad person and probably wants the best.

Jay: (this could get us on a whole tangent so I’ll leave it at that)

David: but no, there’s our old friend the NR

David: hahaha

Sarah: Yeah, Rocky, that’s where I was going with the comparison

Jay: Yeah, it seems strikingly Bantam-like in nature

Sarah: Rae as the pragmatic Imperial

Jay: yes my point is Pellaeon is evil and he’s not the good guy that people keep saying he is for whatever reason.

Jay: And also incompetent.

Jay: I get the comparison though

David: I agree, actually. Thrawn and Pellaeon are not paragons of virtue

Jay: the post-Endor Imperial leader who wants to hold things together and isn’t like you know, cackling villainy

Jay: but Pellaeon is actually a bad bad man and I don’t know why the fandom whitewashes him

Jay: same with Thrawn, as Dave noted.

David: I guess they’d look good in comparison to Force-lightning-spewing freaks

Sarah: Yeah, when your comparison is Palpatine then you tend to look a whole lot more moderate.

Jay: the Emperor was a kind and gentle old man who was misled by awful men

Jay: but yes, I agree with the idea

Rocky: Yeah. They’re definitely less likely to be seen as evil by the general public, and for the Empire, remaking their image will be an important thing after the Rebel Alliance kills the Emperor and spreads it around the galaxy just what the Empire was doing.

David: so… so far the TFA setting has a few unknowns: the First Order, the Resistance, the Knights of Ren, Maz Kanata’s pirates

David: we don’t even know if the NR is still around

Jay: I prefer to see Sloane as someone like a Teren Rogriss — someone who believes in the Imperial system and wasn’t directly associated with atrocities

David: and, more worryingly, we don’t know who controls Coruscant

Jay: yeah, we don’t know what the overall situation is

Jay: both the FO and Resistance sound like new movements

Sarah: Yes, the fact that there’s a “resistance” our heroes are apparently aligned with throws a wrench in a lot of my speculation

Jay: I wonder if it’s intentional somehow, to free up story space for 30 years of books and comics etc?

Jay: but… it is VERY odd

David: we are assuming Leia at least is aligned with the Resistance, right?

Rocky: Probably

Rocky: Seems like this is not the first government the post-ROTJ galaxy has been through

Jay: Yeah, she looked like she was wearing a military uniform and was in a base.

David: maybe. starting things in medias res is, well, very Star Wars, after all

Jay: if it’s a government!

Jay: I suspect TFA will be more action-oriented and less political, OT rather than PT

Sarah: The costume exhibit at Celebration was the first time we learned there was a resistance so I’m trying to remember who all was supposedly involved in it

Jay: if we get any info on the galactic state it’ll be off-hand references and the Crawl I think

Jay: well, we know it’s mentioned in relation to the blue-painted X-wings

Sarah: Yes it looks like TFA will be less political than the PT.

David: I was talking to a friend not too long ago, and we agreed that if the NR has fallen we’d like it to be via a military coup. we don’t want to see the NR portrayed as corrupt as the OR was

Rocky: yeah

Jay: yeah, that was a misstep the Legends EU took

David: I think that was a massive EU mistake

David: yep

Sarah: Agreed, though I kind of hope that’s not the case.

Jay: making the NR get corrupted so quickly and undermining what the heroes had done

Sarah: I mean…at the end of RotJ everyone’s happy and we’ve got this NR on the horizon

David: yeah, i’d love for the NR to still exist

Rocky: The fall of Coruscant from the NJO, though it didn’t utterly kill the NR, was pretty spectacular and is a good way to destroy a galactic government

Jay: it almost felt like the latter day EU was trying to say the Rebels were wrong for rebelling in the first place because tyranny is the only way to go

Sarah: I don’t want TFA to start with “oh well everything’s gone to shit and the NR sucks”

Jay: which… I don’t think is the message of Star Wars???

Jay: I mean what’s the point of my Imperial schtick if it’s not contrary to what everyone is saying.

David: I wonder if this time the NR will be declared just after Endor. no need for an Alliance of Free Planets. streamline the whole thing

David: hahaha

Jay: sounds like it, judging from Battlefront there’s an NR by the time of the Battle of Jakku

Rocky: Whatever they do with TFA, they’ll also have to make it so that people who aren’t super familiar with SW politics can follow it

Jay: that’s like a year post-Endor

Rocky: well, it would make sense for the Rebel Alliance to try to pull together a working government asap

David: oh, we have a timeline placement on that? Nice

Jay: yup

David: I hope the NR is more clearly defined this time

Jay: honestly I hope that the Resistance is either the name of some anti-FO group the NR set up, or just total misdirection

David: I think the Jedi Academy Sourcebook was the only source to actually deal with the functioning of the NR, and no one liked that book

Jay: Because if you’ll notice, while they’ve talked a lot about the FO they’re really reticent about the Resistance.

David: yeah, they could be the NR’s Contra

Jay: actually it would be really cute if the Resistance was the FO’s name for the NR

Sarah: That’s a thought.

Jay: kinda how Thrawn insisted on calling the NR “Rebels” and refused to use the term New Republic

David: well, they use the Rebel Starbird as a symbol, that’s true

Rocky: ooh, I like that theory

Jay: great way to misdirect the audience

David: so they are either related or see themselves as a spiritual successor

Jay: (I was just thinking of the “Crushing the Resistance” coloring book or something. Spoilers??)

David: me too, but it’s too ubiquituous to be just a nickname, IMO

Sarah: It’s possible it’s another scenario like in “The Bacta War.”

David: coming soon to Lit: “is my Crushing the Resistance coloring book canon?”

Sarah: People want to take on the First Order but can’t do it while officially sanctioned by the NR

Jay: Yeah, I remember you mentioned that theory on Twitter.

Jay: I like that one a lot too

David: yeah, the Bacta War Scenario is my favorite one

Jay: the Starbird is an awfully strange symbol to use unless the NR has a different one though

Rocky: which is possible

Jay: it would be like the Contras using the Stars and Stripes and being like “what? We have nothing to do with Reagan!”

David: although I like to call it Space Contra to be controversial Nicaraguan Contra, not Konami Contra!

Sarah: Eh, I could see the NR continuing to use the starbird symbol even as a legitimate government

Sarah: As a reminder of all they fought for

Rocky: Legitimizing their rebellion by turning their symbol of rebellion into a symbol of government

Jay: right, but there goes plausible deniability

Rocky: Because it will be hard to just change galactic governments

David: well, we do have real cases of terrorist groups claiming symbols like that

Jay: if the Resistance uses their own symbol, how can they say “oh those are homegrown fighters we swear”

Jay: they’d have to publicly disavow the use of their symbol as opposed to just refusing to comment on internal affairs

Jay: bad politics.

Sarah: True.

David: and adding something to it to distinguish themselves from the mainstream… because, IIRC, we’ve only seen black starbirds, right?

Jay: there was a blue one at the TFA costume exhibit at SWCA

David: maybe black starbird vs red starbird

Jay: it was under the X-wing

David: oh, there goes my improvised theory. it lived for some nice twenty seconds

Sarah: Ha ha ha

Sarah: Maybe the NR has a symbol that incorporates the starbird but doesn’t use solely use it

Rocky: Or maybe the starbird is a symbol only used by part of the NR?

Sarah: Thus allowing the resistance to be like “We’re using the ‘pure’ symbol because we’re fighting for what’s RIGHT because the NR won’t”

David: i’m going to go local and obscure: revolutionary groups in Spain have claimed the old Republic flag for themselves, to distinguish their movement from the government. this could be a similar thing

David: I’d seriously love that. the Bacta Contra thing. it paints Leia in some interesting shades of grey

Sarah: That could work. It’s not strong plausible deniability for the NR if this is a Bacta War scenario, but it could work.

Jay: that’s not that obscure man, the Spanish Civil War is headline history

Jay: but yeah I mean, it would be cool if the NR had a modified or updated Starbird symbol and the Resistance hardliner types are going for the original symbol

Jay: or maybe the NR uses Sabine’s symbol!

Rocky: I like the idea of divisions within the BR

Jay: that would make the Filoni-haters scream.

Rocky: *NR

David: or even the OR symbol

David: or a hybrid

Sarah: Perhaps a design incorporating the OR with the starbird

Jay: that would be cool, although I wonder if they think people would be confused by its similiarity to the Imperial one

Jay: although using the OR symbol again might be what prompts the FO to create a new one

Sarah: Well the Old Republic games have a symbol that looks closer to the Jedi symbol

Jay: yeah, that crest

David: so then we’d have the NR, probably controlling a big chunk of the galaxy, the FO, new upstarts backed by a pseudo-Sith group, and the Resistance

David: hmm maybe the Resistance are like Kyp Durron’s faction in early NJO

Jay: renegade warmongers?

David: “they don’t believe the FO are nothing but old nostalgics, but we know better…”

David: yeah. probably less boneheaded

Jay: obviously, if Leia’s involved.

David: because, you know, Leia is involved

Jay: HAH

David: haha

David: that would be an interesting setting

David: the ST would show the rise and fall of the FO, then

Jay: unless this is different from the diplomatic Leia we’re used to in the EU

Sarah: The Empire magazine quote seemed to imply that the First Order is similar to ODESSA, but pretty much all the imperials we’ve seen so far are quite young

Jay: maybe this is the more passionate, firebrand Leia continuing through and through

Rocky: the ST had better not forget that Leia is a Jedi too or at least has the potential to be one

Rocky: and that she’s very much Anakin’s daughter

Sarah: I will be so mad if they leave that out

Jay: moreso than Luke even

Jay: I see a lot of Anakin’s fire in Leia

David: Episode VIII ends with the FO taking over Coruscant, and Episode IX has the NR and the Resistance joining forces to retake it. woohoo!

Sarah: Leia is definitely more Anakin-esque than Luke

David: I… hope she’s not a Jedi, actually

Jay: and yes, the FO seems awfully young. Even Hux.

Jay: I get the impression she’s not a Jedi

David: I’d love it if she rejected that destiny

Jay: judging solely from teaser 2 and her getting Anakin’s lightsaber

Sarah: I don’t think she’s a Jedi the way Luke’s a Jedi. But I don’t want her family heritage dropped by the wayside either, plotwise

Rocky: Or at least, don’t ignore that she has the potential whether or not she does anything with it

Sarah: Exactly

David: oh yeah, I want to see her using the Force, perhaps instinctively

Sarah: We got the Luke/Leia sibling reveal so late in the OT that I want to see some sort of development in the ST

David: but I don’t see her rejecting the Rebel life for the way of the Jedi

David: just like I don’t want Han as a general

David: and the reason is that I want them to have arcs in the ST, short as they might be

David: if Leia is going to grab a lightsaber for the first time, I want to see it on screen

Rocky: yes please!

Rocky: and yes to arcs

Rocky: coherent storytelling and good character development

Sarah: Yes to arcs.

Jay: I can see Yoda rolling in his celestial grave

Rocky: (things that Legends forgot)

Jay: “too old to begin the training!”

David: hahaha

Jay: and I can see Leia spearing his ghost in the face with a lightsaber

Sarah: And Leia’s got a lot more anger in her than Luke does too, especially wrt Alderaan and the Empire.

Sarah: Yoda would have a heart attack

Jay: Leia wouldn’t take Yoda’s crap

David: I absent-mindedly grabbed a ROTJ Luke action figure while we were talking this

Jay: “I know you can speak in normal syntax, your routine doesn’t fool anyone”

Sarah: Which…..I wonder how the Jedi play into this

David: so maybe the Big Three are split in TFA? that’d be actually cool. them meeting up for the first time in who knows how many years (although idk how I’d feel about Han and Leia being apart, honestly)

Rocky: I’d love to see the Jedi not actually rebuilt

David: that’s a good question, yes. maybe the most important one

Sarah: I can see Luke as having been out trying to rebuild the Jedi order in some capacity

Sarah: I will be quite upset if Leia and Han aren’t together

Rocky: I hope Leia and Han have been together at some point

David: George Lucas mentioned ages ago something about Luke being an Obi-Wan figure, a hermit somewhere in some lost world. I don’t remember the exact quote

David: I wonder if that idea has survived

Sarah: That’s always been my personal headcanon

Sarah: Thought not necessarily a full on hermit, but not super involved in the politics of setting up a new government

Jay: if Han and Leia aren’t together, I think there will be fandom riots

Rocky: I’d love to see Luke go on a journey of discovery kind of like what Jacen did before LOTF

David: “after the Empire was defeated, Luke walked into the desert and was never seen again”

Jay: people would sooner accept Jar Jar as leader of the First Order than Han and Leia not being together

Sarah: There would have to be a damn good reason for Leia and Han to not be together

David: oh yes

Jay: (speaking of which, I’m now headcanoning Snoke as a Gungan until further notice)

Sarah: Well I remember that Gary Kurtz had a darker ending in mind for RotJ that involved Luke going off on his own

David: I keep hoping he’s the inquisitor from Rebels Season 2

Rocky: I hope we don’t find out much about Snoke

David: I bet we won’t. he will be the OT’s Palpatine

Rocky: like, how we knew the Emperor existed, but it took until ROTJ before we actually really met him on-screen

Jay: it’s interesting that we haven’t seen him at all

Sarah: Yes, I agree with that

Jay: well, they’re doing mo-cap for him ,they’ve been willing to tell us that

David: and in Episode VIII… “Finn, meesa yousa daddy-o!” “Nooooooo!”

Jay: so we’ll see /something/ on screen

Jay: we just might not know anything about him

Sarah: Maybe he won’t show up until the very end?

David: I wonder if he’s an alien, a cyborg, a mutated human, or what

Jay: do we think it’s his voice in the trailer? The “there has been an Awakening” guy?

David: I keep thinking of the Navigators from Dune for some reason (because they creeped me out)

Jay: I don’t remember if that’s confirmed to be him or everyone assumes it

Sarah: I think that was confirmed to be him, yes

Jay: okay

David: yeah, I think that’s confirmed

David: plus he’s been identified as a darksider

Jay: yeah

David: he probably tells that quote to the Knights of Red, or to Kylo. it’s very “the Son of Skywalker is alive”

Sarah: Maybe he’s a Thrawn by any other name

Sarah: (kidding)

David: hahaha

Rocky: ahaha

Rocky: I do hope we see a Chiss somewhere in the ST

David: so we have a darksider trying to resurrect the Empire, a New Republic unaware of the danger, and a Resistance more than aware (or a NR aware of the danger but unwilling to do anything publically because, dunno, they are a legitimate government)

Sarah: We’ve also got Max von Sydow in the cast, who I keep forgetting about. We know nothing about him

David: oh yes! very true!

Rocky: This is all a good setup for lots of political intrigue, which I bet will be told more in books than in movies

Jay: I just hope the Empire doesn’t fold up overnight

Jay: it should take a while to get to the TFA situation

Sarah: I think it’ll hold on for a while

Sarah: The teaser chapter from Aftermath implies that, at least in my opinion

Jay: though I think we can at least basically be certain the Empire is not the FO

Rocky: I liked how the decaying Empire was handled in the early Bantam books. a serious threat, but with lots of infighting and a few warlords, some of whom are more competent than others

David: OR we only have First Order and Resistance, and in that case… I don’t think how it would work out. maybe Coop’s idea of galactic anarchy? and this generation are the ones to unify the galaxy under a Really New Republic?

Jay: in-fighting is likely, though I hope they wouldn’t rely on it as an explanation for why the NR took Coruscant so quickly

Jay: the fall of Coruscant deserves to be some sort of event series

Sarah: Yeah Rocky, I’m reading the X Wing books right now and I like that portrayal of the post-RotJ situation

Jay: novels and comics together

David: agreed

Sarah: Agreed

David: …if it ever happens

Rocky: seriously

David: darn, this is so exciting!

Jay: haha

Sarah: True, we don’t even know who holds Coruscant now

David: anything could happen!

Jay: you mean if the Empire is actually still around in TFA?

Jay: Empire v. Resistance v. FO?

Sarah: I…..doubt that. Casuals fans would be like “But they destroyed the Empire in RotJ, why are they still in power?”

David: maybe it’s destroyed by the Galactic Peeler superweapon! we don’t know a thing! and I love it!

Jay: yeah, it’s not very cinematic

David: yeah, not very likely. the Empire has to die before TFA

Rocky: ahaha

Jay: it’s fun for boring politics and history nerds

Rocky: yeah

Rocky: as long as we find out how it died!

Sarah: Haha yup

David: I bet we will

Rocky:

Jay: we all are

Jay: that’s why we’re chatting about this

Sarah:

David: and hopefully this time it will be coordinated storytelling and not… not what we had before

Jay: yeah, which was DE and TTT not talking to each other

Jay: with WEG and Stackpole picking up the pieces

Sarah: The fact that they have the story group now makes me believe the storyline will be more streamlined

David: and the last legitimate Emperor being Xandel Carivus

Jay: shudder

David: oh yeah

Jay: yeah, it kills me to date the death of the Empire with Carivus

Jay: actually that brings up a question

Jay: do we want to see any post-ROTJ emperors?

Sarah: No

David: I’d rather not

Jay: whether in control of the majority of the remnants or emperors in name only

Rocky: please no

David: I’m okay with warlords and whatnot

Rocky: lots of people who try to be Emperor, but no one who takes the title or succeeds in it

Jay: So basically we’re all just saying “do Bantam again”

David: but Palpatine’s line should die with him

Sarah: I’d rather have warlords than someone proclaiming themself emperor

Jay: no reason you couldn’t have both

David: well, I didn’t mind the warlord scenario. I thought it was pretty great!

Jay: warlords were by definition not serving the Imperial government

Jay: but being their own separate fiefdoms

David: Mas Amedda as a Regent?

Jay: the Empire was ruled by Pestage, Isard, and Dangor in turn until the Emperor returned — not a one of them officially took the throne

Sarah: True. Warring imperial officers then, all trying to grab power and rule the Empire

Jay: and also, someone proclaiming themselves emperor could actually splinter the Empire further

Jay: as everyone else says “nuh-uh!” and “why you?” and breaks away

Rocky: yeah, they were very firmly not willing to declare themselves Emperor

Sarah: Further fracturing and weakening them

David: it could be like the taifas in the Spanish Reconquista. a central entity that’s basically a rebranded Empire and several small satrapies around it

David: see, I wouldn’t like a new Emperor… but I’d like to see WHY there’s not a new Emperor

Rocky: yeah

Jay: the Imperial Mutiny in Legends started with Dangor and the Imperial Advisors trying to make one of themselves emperor, with the military and everything else intervening to fight over it

Jay: right

Rocky: yeah

Jay: so we know Aftermath has some sort of summit of Imperial leaders

Jay: I strongly suspect they’ll have their summit, and nobody will agree

David: ah the Imperial Mutiny. such a murky retcon, but so cool

Jay: and that’ll have some sort of ramifications

Jay: my very use of the term Imperial Mutiny also betrays my allegiances in that matter

David: Aftermath is a trilogy now, right

Sarah: Yes

Rocky: I would definitely like to see what the Empire does when they lose their Emperor, Vader, and a bunch of good people at Endor

David: a lot of things can happen

Sarah: We’ve got thirty years to explore between ROTF and TFA

Sarah: *ROTJ

David: I’m hoping for at least one decade of peace, though

Jay: I can see things falling apart very quickly

Jay: before the Empire gets its shit together, if it does

Jay: a lot of outlying systems breaking off, other things breaking off

Jay: but if the NR keeps up a constant pressure

Jay: who knows, maybe Jakku IS the straw that breaks the camel’s back?

Jay: I just hope it’s not all over that quickly

Rocky: maybe!

Jay: we have 30 years to work with

David: I also wonder how the NR is going to work now that we know how the OR was

Rocky: yeah

Rocky: how much do they know about OR and the decay of the OR

Sarah: I wonder if the NR will idealize the OR to the detriment

Sarah: Sort of like how we’re theorizing the FO idealising the Empire

David: Supreme Chancellor Mothma? New Judicial Fleet?

David: or Supreme Chancellor Ackbar (shout out to Admiral Nick, here)

Jay: yeah will they follow PT models or not?

Jay: they’re not PT heavy but I don’t think they’ll ignore it completely

David: I think the Chancellor title is almost a given

Jay: for better or worse, the PT OR is the OR

Jay: yes

David: even casuals use it often

Jay: there won’t be a chief of state

Jay: iirc also the Leia comic called Mothma “Chancellor”

Jay: sooo

David: oh right

Sarah: Oh that’s true

David: i had forgotten about that

Rocky: hopefully we also get to see how the NR forms

Rocky: at some point

Jay: I never forget anything about Mothma.

David: I kind of wish they give Mothma some legitimacy to claim that title

Jay: Mothma has no legitimacy!

Jay: she’s a bitter senator upset she lost an election

Jay: and is launching a military coup against the lawful government

Jay: she is a caudilla, nothing more!

David: maybe she would’ve been the elected Chancellor hadn’t Palps ignored the two terms limit, and she rejects the results of that election

Jay: there was a crisis going on shut up

David: hey, I don’t care how flimsy it is, but I want something. anything

David: Chancellor in Exile Mothma!

Jay: anyway the whole point of the Rebellion is that it is illegitimate. They’re a revolution, not a counter-revolution

Rocky: I hope she doesn’t die in her sleep like in Legends

Rocky: ^ very true about the Rebellion

Rocky: maybe they have trouble becoming a legit government

Sarah: Ooh I hadn’t thought of it that way before

David: hey, Palpatine used murder and deception to become Emperor, and you don’t see me calling him illegitimate

Jay: maybe the Core won’t want to join them

Jay: that’s out of universe info!

David: hahaha

Jay: actually, I wonder if Mothma knows

Jay: Bail surely knows, thanks to the Jedi

Sarah: Bail’s dead though

Jay: yes but presumably he and Mothma had at least chatted when they formed their Rebellion

Sarah: Yeah but still, it just be her word

David: the Outer Rim seem more important for the Rebel Alliance now that they were in Legends, thanks to Free Ryloth and the Onderon guerrilla

Sarah: Maybe there’s still a lot of anti-Jedi sentiment in the galaxy

Jay: the old EU knew nothing about the foundation of the Empire and the Clone Wars, but the new post-ROTJ EU could be different

Jay: Sarah, I do appreciate your patriotism

Jay: it is noted.

David: (and I love that Ultimate Star Wars made one of the pilots in Yavin an Onderonian)

Jay: Lothal too

David: oh yeah, that too

Jay: the Rebellion seems to be a Rim-born movement way more than it was in Legends

Sarah: Do we know if Jakku is Outer Rim?

Jay: which I am very happy with.

Rocky: yeah

David: me too

David: and I adore Cham Syndulla, so extra happy

Rocky: well, my articles on galactic cartography- the Rim is a big place and there’re tons of unexplored or poorly explored areas

Jay: I *think* Abrams said it was in the Outer Rim at SWCA

Sarah: well in-universe the Outer Rim is often the most disenfranchised and exploited

Jay: but I was half conscious and too much excite and BB-8

David: I’d say Outer Rim, yes

Sarah: That was Palpatine’s and Plagueis’ whole gambit in Legends, that they’d play the extravagance of the Core against the Mid and Outer Rims

Jay: yes

Rocky: the Outer Rim is so out there and not always part of the galaxy, that it’s a great place for rebellions and things like that

Rocky: and I hope they maintain that

David: but wait. maybe it’s in First Order territory, if we are assuming the Resistance are a guerrilla force against them.

Sarah: So it would make sense that the Rebellion would start out in the poorer sections of the galaxy

Jay: that the Core would be opulent and pampered under the Empire, while the Rim would be exploited

David: if the First Order Rim-based?

David: wouldn’t that be ironic

David: …ironic and relevant

Jay: and then when the Rebellion arose, the Empire would say “look at all those Rimward barbarians coming to steal your monies!”

David: the rise of fascism among the poor parts of the galaxy

Rocky: yes

Jay: (which is basically how FFG put it in Force and Destiny)

Rocky: that’s a really good way to put it

Jay: yeah, the FO — if it’s home-grown — can’t be a Coreward movement I think

Jay: it would have to be a bunch of poor, radicalized people who are not getting what they need under the NR

Rocky: yes

Jay: and so who think the answer is dictatorship

David: yeah, agreed

Rocky: because they’re so out there in the Rim that it’s super easy to lose track of people

Sarah: So basically we’re back to space Hitler taking power then

Rocky: “the Republic has no authority out here”

Rocky: if they’re making the Nazi comparison, yes

Jay: maybe they’re a bunch of humans who are upset that the aliens are getting integrated into the galaxy again

Jay: “remember during the Empire, all of us humans had jobs!”

David: maybe more The New Rebellion than Bacta War?

Rocky: (speaking of Legends books I loved)

Jay: “now I work a dead-end job for a Togrutan who wants to fire me!”

David: poor Finn bought into the First Order rethoric

David: Snoke is such a good public speaker…

David: always going “HAAAvvEE YYoouUUUU FFFFELT iiiiTTTTT”

Rocky: bringing in all the disenfranchised beings from the Rim

David: (I’m beyond excited that a stormtrooper deserter is one of the main characters, ngl)

Rocky: and maybe a few older people who miss the old Empire because the Empire made the trains run on time

Rocky: yesssss

Jay: hahahahaha

Sarah: Maybe that’s Max von Sydow

Jay: well-played, sir!

David: *tips hat*

David: I think Snoke is confirmed to be Andy Serkis

Jay: mo-cap tho, the voice could be Sydow maybe?

Sarah: Snoke is confirmed to be Serkis

Jay: I have no idea what Serkis sounds like

Sarah: I meant that Sydow is the grumpy old man who misses the clockwork precision of the EMpire

Jay: “Max von Sydow as…. random grumpy man”

Jay: I like it

David: I’m assuming Von Sydow doesn’t play a particularly important character. we would know by now. unless he’s a secret character kind of type, ofc

David: ha, I could see him as a nostalgic

Sarah: Maybe someone like Tarkin: played by a veteran actor but dies in the first movie and ultimately isn’t THAT important to the plot

Jay: maybe he’s a nostalgic that thinks the First Order isn’t good enough to be the Empire

Rocky: hm, interesting

David: oh true. could be a tarkin-like character. maybe for the resistance, for a twist

Rocky: I do hope we run into people who remember what the old Empire was like, for better or worse

David: because I like that Hux is young and in charge, reinforces the neonazi look

Sarah: Yes, agreed.

David: yeah, I wonder what makes Finn change his allegiance

Sarah: Maybe Finn discovers he’s Force sensitive?

David: (I mean, I know a bit, because I’m not spoiler free, but just vaguely)

Jay: I’ve always been assuming it’s that village murdering on Jakku?

Jay: because we see that scene in the second trailer where he like, rips off the helmet

Sarah: Perhaps the Empire/First Order is still killing Force sensitives

Jay: and he looks sick to his stomach

David: yeah, that was my original theory too

Sarah: Yeah it’s actually probably likely that he defects due to witnessing some sort of atrocity

David: witnessing… or feeling

Sarah: That too.

Jay: true

Jay: but would he recognize it?

David: finding out you are Force-sensitive while you are in the middle of a massacre… that can’t be cool

Jay: oh I see

Jay: yes, still in the middle of it

David: it’s fun how excited we are by the possibilities of TFA, honestly

Sarah: there’s so many directions it could go

Rocky: I do like all the empty space

David: a part of me wants everything to be completely unexpected

David: Leia married Lando and fathered Finn? I’ll buy that!

David: …oh God, tomorrow someone is going to start ‘shipping Landeia, right?

Sarah: that would be worth the fandom meltdown

Rocky: the fandom will probably have a meltdown no matter what happens

David: yeah

Sarah: True. Either from excitement or not having their expectations met

David: it’s never going to be enough for the “if it’s not identical to what we got in Legends, it’s bad” contingent

David: we were supposed to be talking about the political scenario, and we ended up talking about TFA in general. good sign, I think

David: we are intrigued by the characters

Sarah: And the fact that we basically know nothing makes it fun to try and fill in the holes

David: even Poe Dameron, who seems to be a Top Gun douchebag, is intriguing

Rocky: speaking of characters I’m excited to learn about, Captain Phasma

Jay: I want to learn about Phasma

Sarah: SAME

Jay: yes!

David: ohhhh yes

Sarah: I desperately want her to be the Empire’s pop culture propaganda figure

Sarah: Comics of her punching Luke

David: and I want to keep seeing Andi@StarWars.com correcting fans about her gender

Rocky: like, a ST version of Face Loran, maybe?

Sarah: TV serials about her adventures

Sarah: Or an in-universe version of Captain America

Jay: yes

David: I hope her role is hefty

Jay: yes

Sarah: Yes. I hope she doesn’t pull a Maul and die at the end of the first movie

Rocky: she had better not

David: General Hux is the only character I don’t give a crap about. I mean, I’m glad he’s there, but whatever

Rocky: yeah

David: British evil general. been there, seen that.

Rocky: might be a character we start liking more later on

Rocky: or a character designed for us to love to hate

David: Phasma and Kylo… they are unknown quantities

Jay: Hux could be the Tarkin

Jay: all i care about is his jacket

David: just like desert scavenger Rey or former stormtrooper lightsaber-wielding Finn

Sarah: Yeah, we still need our mustache twirling villain after all

Jay: now that we’ve seen it, he’s expendible

Rocky: we need expendable villains

Jay: also expendable

David: hahahaha

David: i hope he bites it, and not Phasma

Rocky: no really! especially in a galaxy that might have had a lot of political problems

David: someone has to die at the end of the movie

Rocky: expendable villains may be necessary

Rocky: (not phasma please)

Sarah: I agree.

David: there is no resolution unless there’s MURDER!

David: rule #1 of action movies!

Sarah: Kylo’s PROBABLY in it for the long haul but who knows about Phasma and Hux

David: yeah, his face is everywhere, but… I would have thought the same about Maul before TPM

Sarah: True

David: do we want to talk about the Knights of Ren, probably the most WTF info from the EW article?

Jay: actually

Sarah: Only if we promise not to do any Monty Python jokes

David: hahahaha

Rocky: bring me a shrubbery.

Jay: I would love it if Kylo survived but was a complete doofus and non-entity

Sarah: “lookout we got a badass over here”

Rocky: I’m looking forward to non-Jedi and Sith Force-users

David: I think (hope) they are a reworking of the Knights of Sith from one of the early drafts

David: I mean… they named the base “Starkiller Base”, after all. they’ve looked at the drafts…

David: the lightsaber thugs that do the Emperor’s bidding

David: er, the Supreme Leader’s bidding

Sarah: I’m curious about the fact that apparently when you join the Knights, you change your last name to Ren

Sarah: I wonder if “Kylo” is a similar sort of title or if it’s his actual name

Sarah: Or a pseudonym

David: yeah, the Darth system all over again

Jay: Hux’s coat was manufactured by Ralphlau Ren

Rocky: they have fragments of info on the old Sith and they try to adapt some of it into the Knights of Ren?

Rocky: ahaha

Sarah: I could see that

David: and that makes you wonder if Kylo is related to one of the new characters, one of the big three, both, or whatever. I love secret identities

Rocky: yesssssss.

David: lol @ Ralphlau Ren

Sarah: They hinted at Kylo being related to a main character in the EW article

David: sometimes I wonder if JJ is withholding the last names of Rey and Finn just to troll

Rocky: probably.

David: oh really? I missed that

Sarah: I think they did, let me double check

Rocky: my personal theory on Rey’s last name: maybe she doesn’t know it

David: and Finn’s last name is revealed to be Galfridian

David: …

Rocky: ahaha

Rocky: like, maybe Rey has been isolated/away from her family for so long that she doesn’t know her real last name or doesn’t remember it

David: that’d be cool. hey, maybe she’s our new Revan

Sarah: Okay jk, the EW article hinted that Kylo might be related to someone we know but it wasn’t a direct quote from abrams, just editorializing

David: maybe she’s a descendant of the people that crashed the star destroyer

Sarah: also NO they need to give revan a rest

Rocky: grumbles about revan being canonically a man

David: probably the daughter of a marooned Rebel. and that’s why that bit with her offering Finn her hand is a big deal

Rocky: I like that idea

David: they can go so many places with all of this

Sarah: Someone on tumblr came up with a scenario where she’s the granddaughter of Sabe, Padme’s decoy from TPM

David: hahaha

Rocky: tumblr probably has lots of good TFA conspiracy theories

David: “my name is… Rey Mothma” *Jay gets up and leaves the theater*

Sarah: hahaha

Sarah: Can you imagine though

David: oh yes

David: I love the idea of the Knights of Ren. they can be like what the Shadow Academy could have been

Sarah: I wonder if they’re all Sith fanboys or if Kylo’s just special

Jay: if Rey is the daughter of Mon Mothma I am swearing off Star Wars

Jay: just

David: the burnt Vader mask!

Jay: completely

David: hahahaha

Rocky: the burnt Vader mask was so creepy

Sarah: It was SO GREAT though

David: but that’s a good point. maybe Kylo is the only Vader-fanboy

David: and the other Knights look at him funny

Sarah: Maybe the Knights of Ren are more of a Neutral Jedi type group. Not necessarily light-side aligned, but not Sith either

Sarah: So Kylo’s kind of a renegade there

David: that would be unexpected, certainly

David: meaning I like it

Sarah: I’m probably overcomplicating it too, haha

Sarah: But it would be a cool twist

Jay: …maybe the Knights of Ren are the new Jedi Order that Luke founded.

Sarah: OHHHHHH

David: haha that’s kiiiind of where I wanted to get with the Shadow Academy bit

David: Luke is a hermit because his students have rejected his training and gone all X-Force on him

David: (sorry, X-Men reference, I promise it’s the last one)

Rocky: ooh

Rocky: luke realizes he doesn’t know how to train Jedi after they all go wrong

David: they all agree and one morning tell him: “master, you are full of sith”

Sarah: That was a terrible pun

David: “we are going to Ren, we hear it’s great in the summer”

David: I try

Jay: I still like the idea of them being a LARPer group

Jay: the Knights of Ren Faire

David: haha

Jay: would go with Kylo’s fanboyism and homebuilt lightsaber

Rocky: trying really hard to be real dark siders but mostly being real laughingstocks

Jay: more like

Jay: dork side of the Force

Sarah: pffffff

David: well, I’m going to have to leave soon. my wife is here with ice cream, and I can’t say no to that

Sarah: Yeah I’ve got some work to finish up tonight.

Jay: I think that’s as good a place as any to end

Sarah: This was good though

David: so, to sum it up?

Jay: THE EMPIRE IS VICTORIOUS ON ALL FRONTS

Sarah: Galactic Contra, Space Hitler, everyone’s a renegade

David: we have no idea, but every single possibility excites us?

Jay: also all hail Rae Sloane

Jay: …sorry that may have all just been in my head.

David: Empress Sloane OH WAIT

Jay: SOLD.