If you’re new to Eleven-ThirtyEight this may be the first real Aggressive Negotiations piece you’ve seen here—unlike most of our content, Aggressive Negotiations are raw, largely unproofed live chats among our staff and occasionally others. Being so very off the cuff and unscripted, they can sometimes get a little out of control (this one in particular tops out at over seven thousand words, which just might make it the longest piece on the site), but the goal is to present fandom in its most pure form—and this is absolutely that.
Today’s topic: the post-Endor political status quo, prompted by the latest round of The Force Awakens bits and pieces from Entertainment Weekly and elsewhere. I couldn’t make it to this one myself, and in fact as of this writing I haven’t even read the damned thing yet, so this ought to be fun for all of us. Force Friday ahoy! – Mike, EIC
Sarah: I thought it was interesting that the Empire article seems to imply that the First Order isn’t actually the Imperial Remnant like we were assuming
Sarah: But is instead some sort of galactic Golden Dawn
David: yeah, the neonazi simile we mentioned in Twitter seems very accurate
Rocky: And it makes me wonder if maybe the Empire decayed fast.
David: a bunch of brats that haven’t lived under the Empire and have an idealized version of it
David: Kylo Ren and his people sure sounds like neo-Sith wannabes, at least
Sarah: Oh definitely. That’s been my pet theory since the first teaser and it looks like it might play out that way.
Rocky: the wannabes thing is something kind of interesting. they don’t know what the old Empire and old Sith were like and don’t believe people who tell them how it was.
David: I wonder if it’s closer to the Legends scenario than anyone could have expected
Jay: That was my initial thought with the First Order, especially before I saw their advanced tech. Although I suppose I’m just assuming their tech is advanced just because it’s streamlined, but that could be just modernizing.
Jay: I’m reminded a lot of LotF — a series I did not finish — which featured those damn kids nostalgic for the Empire but who had no idea what it was like
David: you have warlords for a while, then they seem to die down… and suddenly someone new appears and unifies them. only this time it’s Snoke, not Daalalleon
Rocky: Ahaha, yes.
Rocky: Someone who may remember the old Empire but has all these visions of how it could have been a much better thing.
Sarah: And I have to wonder if there is a Pellaeon-esque character (Rae Sloane perhaps) who eventually looks to come to some sort of diplomatic agreement with the New Republic
David: only this time what he unifies are the descendants of those old Imperials
David: because the time frame is larger
Jay: Sarah you did not just call Sloane Pellaeon-esque
David: ah yes, the New Republic. I gotta admit I was surprised when I saw it mentioned in Battlefront (I think)
Jay: that is the cruellest thing you could say
David: I kind of assumed TFA was going to go on a wildly new direction
Sarah: disclaimer: I have not read many Legends books, especially post-RotJ legends
Jay: Ah. Well Pellaeon is a coward, a traitor, and a fascist.
David: showing a restored Galactic Republic or even still a Rebel Alliance
Rocky: I feel like if we get a Pellaeon, it’ll be Sloane. She is being kind of pitched as the Imperial who’s not a bad person and probably wants the best.
Jay: (this could get us on a whole tangent so I’ll leave it at that)
David: but no, there’s our old friend the NR
Sarah: Yeah, Rocky, that’s where I was going with the comparison
Jay: Yeah, it seems strikingly Bantam-like in nature
Sarah: Rae as the pragmatic Imperial
Jay: yes my point is Pellaeon is evil and he’s not the good guy that people keep saying he is for whatever reason.
Jay: And also incompetent.
Jay: I get the comparison though
David: I agree, actually. Thrawn and Pellaeon are not paragons of virtue
Jay: the post-Endor Imperial leader who wants to hold things together and isn’t like you know, cackling villainy
Jay: but Pellaeon is actually a bad bad man and I don’t know why the fandom whitewashes him
Jay: same with Thrawn, as Dave noted.
David: I guess they’d look good in comparison to Force-lightning-spewing freaks
Sarah: Yeah, when your comparison is Palpatine then you tend to look a whole lot more moderate.
Jay: the Emperor was a kind and gentle old man who was misled by awful men
Jay: but yes, I agree with the idea
Rocky: Yeah. They’re definitely less likely to be seen as evil by the general public, and for the Empire, remaking their image will be an important thing after the Rebel Alliance kills the Emperor and spreads it around the galaxy just what the Empire was doing.
David: so… so far the TFA setting has a few unknowns: the First Order, the Resistance, the Knights of Ren, Maz Kanata’s pirates
David: we don’t even know if the NR is still around
Jay: I prefer to see Sloane as someone like a Teren Rogriss — someone who believes in the Imperial system and wasn’t directly associated with atrocities
David: and, more worryingly, we don’t know who controls Coruscant
Jay: yeah, we don’t know what the overall situation is
Jay: both the FO and Resistance sound like new movements
Sarah: Yes, the fact that there’s a “resistance” our heroes are apparently aligned with throws a wrench in a lot of my speculation
Jay: I wonder if it’s intentional somehow, to free up story space for 30 years of books and comics etc?
Jay: but… it is VERY odd
David: we are assuming Leia at least is aligned with the Resistance, right?
Rocky: Seems like this is not the first government the post-ROTJ galaxy has been through
Jay: Yeah, she looked like she was wearing a military uniform and was in a base.
David: maybe. starting things in medias res is, well, very Star Wars, after all
Jay: if it’s a government!
Jay: I suspect TFA will be more action-oriented and less political, OT rather than PT
Sarah: The costume exhibit at Celebration was the first time we learned there was a resistance so I’m trying to remember who all was supposedly involved in it
Jay: if we get any info on the galactic state it’ll be off-hand references and the Crawl I think
Jay: well, we know it’s mentioned in relation to the blue-painted X-wings
Sarah: Yes it looks like TFA will be less political than the PT.
David: I was talking to a friend not too long ago, and we agreed that if the NR has fallen we’d like it to be via a military coup. we don’t want to see the NR portrayed as corrupt as the OR was
Jay: yeah, that was a misstep the Legends EU took
David: I think that was a massive EU mistake
Sarah: Agreed, though I kind of hope that’s not the case.
Jay: making the NR get corrupted so quickly and undermining what the heroes had done
Sarah: I mean…at the end of RotJ everyone’s happy and we’ve got this NR on the horizon
David: yeah, i’d love for the NR to still exist
Rocky: The fall of Coruscant from the NJO, though it didn’t utterly kill the NR, was pretty spectacular and is a good way to destroy a galactic government
Jay: it almost felt like the latter day EU was trying to say the Rebels were wrong for rebelling in the first place because tyranny is the only way to go
Sarah: I don’t want TFA to start with “oh well everything’s gone to shit and the NR sucks”
Jay: which… I don’t think is the message of Star Wars???
Jay: I mean what’s the point of my Imperial schtick if it’s not contrary to what everyone is saying.
David: I wonder if this time the NR will be declared just after Endor. no need for an Alliance of Free Planets. streamline the whole thing
Jay: sounds like it, judging from Battlefront there’s an NR by the time of the Battle of Jakku
Rocky: Whatever they do with TFA, they’ll also have to make it so that people who aren’t super familiar with SW politics can follow it
Jay: that’s like a year post-Endor
Rocky: well, it would make sense for the Rebel Alliance to try to pull together a working government asap
David: oh, we have a timeline placement on that? Nice
David: I hope the NR is more clearly defined this time
Jay: honestly I hope that the Resistance is either the name of some anti-FO group the NR set up, or just total misdirection
David: I think the Jedi Academy Sourcebook was the only source to actually deal with the functioning of the NR, and no one liked that book
Jay: Because if you’ll notice, while they’ve talked a lot about the FO they’re really reticent about the Resistance.
David: yeah, they could be the NR’s Contra
Jay: actually it would be really cute if the Resistance was the FO’s name for the NR
Sarah: That’s a thought.
Jay: kinda how Thrawn insisted on calling the NR “Rebels” and refused to use the term New Republic
David: well, they use the Rebel Starbird as a symbol, that’s true
Rocky: ooh, I like that theory
Jay: great way to misdirect the audience
David: so they are either related or see themselves as a spiritual successor
Jay: (I was just thinking of the “Crushing the Resistance” coloring book or something. Spoilers??)
David: me too, but it’s too ubiquituous to be just a nickname, IMO
Sarah: It’s possible it’s another scenario like in “The Bacta War.”
David: coming soon to Lit: “is my Crushing the Resistance coloring book canon?”
Sarah: People want to take on the First Order but can’t do it while officially sanctioned by the NR
Jay: Yeah, I remember you mentioned that theory on Twitter.
Jay: I like that one a lot too
David: yeah, the Bacta War Scenario is my favorite one
Jay: the Starbird is an awfully strange symbol to use unless the NR has a different one though
Rocky: which is possible
Jay: it would be like the Contras using the Stars and Stripes and being like “what? We have nothing to do with Reagan!”
David: although I like to call it Space Contra to be controversial Nicaraguan Contra, not Konami Contra!
Sarah: Eh, I could see the NR continuing to use the starbird symbol even as a legitimate government
Sarah: As a reminder of all they fought for
Rocky: Legitimizing their rebellion by turning their symbol of rebellion into a symbol of government
Jay: right, but there goes plausible deniability
Rocky: Because it will be hard to just change galactic governments
David: well, we do have real cases of terrorist groups claiming symbols like that
Jay: if the Resistance uses their own symbol, how can they say “oh those are homegrown fighters we swear”
Jay: they’d have to publicly disavow the use of their symbol as opposed to just refusing to comment on internal affairs
Jay: bad politics.
David: and adding something to it to distinguish themselves from the mainstream… because, IIRC, we’ve only seen black starbirds, right?
Jay: there was a blue one at the TFA costume exhibit at SWCA
David: maybe black starbird vs red starbird
Jay: it was under the X-wing
David: oh, there goes my improvised theory. it lived for some nice twenty seconds
Sarah: Ha ha ha
Sarah: Maybe the NR has a symbol that incorporates the starbird but doesn’t use solely use it
Rocky: Or maybe the starbird is a symbol only used by part of the NR?
Sarah: Thus allowing the resistance to be like “We’re using the ‘pure’ symbol because we’re fighting for what’s RIGHT because the NR won’t”
David: i’m going to go local and obscure: revolutionary groups in Spain have claimed the old Republic flag for themselves, to distinguish their movement from the government. this could be a similar thing
David: I’d seriously love that. the Bacta Contra thing. it paints Leia in some interesting shades of grey
Sarah: That could work. It’s not strong plausible deniability for the NR if this is a Bacta War scenario, but it could work.
Jay: that’s not that obscure man, the Spanish Civil War is headline history
Jay: but yeah I mean, it would be cool if the NR had a modified or updated Starbird symbol and the Resistance hardliner types are going for the original symbol
Jay: or maybe the NR uses Sabine’s symbol!
Rocky: I like the idea of divisions within the BR
Jay: that would make the Filoni-haters scream.
David: or even the OR symbol
David: or a hybrid
Sarah: Perhaps a design incorporating the OR with the starbird
Jay: that would be cool, although I wonder if they think people would be confused by its similiarity to the Imperial one
Jay: although using the OR symbol again might be what prompts the FO to create a new one
Sarah: Well the Old Republic games have a symbol that looks closer to the Jedi symbol
Jay: yeah, that crest
David: so then we’d have the NR, probably controlling a big chunk of the galaxy, the FO, new upstarts backed by a pseudo-Sith group, and the Resistance
David: hmm maybe the Resistance are like Kyp Durron’s faction in early NJO
Jay: renegade warmongers?
David: “they don’t believe the FO are nothing but old nostalgics, but we know better…”
David: yeah. probably less boneheaded
Jay: obviously, if Leia’s involved.
David: because, you know, Leia is involved
David: that would be an interesting setting
David: the ST would show the rise and fall of the FO, then
Jay: unless this is different from the diplomatic Leia we’re used to in the EU
Sarah: The Empire magazine quote seemed to imply that the First Order is similar to ODESSA, but pretty much all the imperials we’ve seen so far are quite young
Jay: maybe this is the more passionate, firebrand Leia continuing through and through
Rocky: the ST had better not forget that Leia is a Jedi too or at least has the potential to be one
Rocky: and that she’s very much Anakin’s daughter
Sarah: I will be so mad if they leave that out
Jay: moreso than Luke even
Jay: I see a lot of Anakin’s fire in Leia
David: Episode VIII ends with the FO taking over Coruscant, and Episode IX has the NR and the Resistance joining forces to retake it. woohoo!
Sarah: Leia is definitely more Anakin-esque than Luke
David: I… hope she’s not a Jedi, actually
Jay: and yes, the FO seems awfully young. Even Hux.
Jay: I get the impression she’s not a Jedi
David: I’d love it if she rejected that destiny
Jay: judging solely from teaser 2 and her getting Anakin’s lightsaber
Sarah: I don’t think she’s a Jedi the way Luke’s a Jedi. But I don’t want her family heritage dropped by the wayside either, plotwise
Rocky: Or at least, don’t ignore that she has the potential whether or not she does anything with it
David: oh yeah, I want to see her using the Force, perhaps instinctively
Sarah: We got the Luke/Leia sibling reveal so late in the OT that I want to see some sort of development in the ST
David: but I don’t see her rejecting the Rebel life for the way of the Jedi
David: just like I don’t want Han as a general
David: and the reason is that I want them to have arcs in the ST, short as they might be
David: if Leia is going to grab a lightsaber for the first time, I want to see it on screen
Rocky: yes please!
Rocky: and yes to arcs
Rocky: coherent storytelling and good character development
Sarah: Yes to arcs.
Jay: I can see Yoda rolling in his celestial grave
Rocky: (things that Legends forgot)
Jay: “too old to begin the training!”
Jay: and I can see Leia spearing his ghost in the face with a lightsaber
Sarah: And Leia’s got a lot more anger in her than Luke does too, especially wrt Alderaan and the Empire.
Sarah: Yoda would have a heart attack
Jay: Leia wouldn’t take Yoda’s crap
David: I absent-mindedly grabbed a ROTJ Luke action figure while we were talking this
Jay: “I know you can speak in normal syntax, your routine doesn’t fool anyone”
Sarah: Which…..I wonder how the Jedi play into this
David: so maybe the Big Three are split in TFA? that’d be actually cool. them meeting up for the first time in who knows how many years (although idk how I’d feel about Han and Leia being apart, honestly)
Rocky: I’d love to see the Jedi not actually rebuilt
David: that’s a good question, yes. maybe the most important one
Sarah: I can see Luke as having been out trying to rebuild the Jedi order in some capacity
Sarah: I will be quite upset if Leia and Han aren’t together
Rocky: I hope Leia and Han have been together at some point
David: George Lucas mentioned ages ago something about Luke being an Obi-Wan figure, a hermit somewhere in some lost world. I don’t remember the exact quote
David: I wonder if that idea has survived
Sarah: That’s always been my personal headcanon
Sarah: Thought not necessarily a full on hermit, but not super involved in the politics of setting up a new government
Jay: if Han and Leia aren’t together, I think there will be fandom riots
Rocky: I’d love to see Luke go on a journey of discovery kind of like what Jacen did before LOTF
David: “after the Empire was defeated, Luke walked into the desert and was never seen again”
Jay: people would sooner accept Jar Jar as leader of the First Order than Han and Leia not being together
Sarah: There would have to be a damn good reason for Leia and Han to not be together
David: oh yes
Jay: (speaking of which, I’m now headcanoning Snoke as a Gungan until further notice)
Sarah: Well I remember that Gary Kurtz had a darker ending in mind for RotJ that involved Luke going off on his own
David: I keep hoping he’s the inquisitor from Rebels Season 2
Rocky: I hope we don’t find out much about Snoke
David: I bet we won’t. he will be the OT’s Palpatine
Rocky: like, how we knew the Emperor existed, but it took until ROTJ before we actually really met him on-screen
Jay: it’s interesting that we haven’t seen him at all
Sarah: Yes, I agree with that
Jay: well, they’re doing mo-cap for him ,they’ve been willing to tell us that
David: and in Episode VIII… “Finn, meesa yousa daddy-o!” “Nooooooo!”
Jay: so we’ll see /something/ on screen
Jay: we just might not know anything about him
Sarah: Maybe he won’t show up until the very end?
David: I wonder if he’s an alien, a cyborg, a mutated human, or what
Jay: do we think it’s his voice in the trailer? The “there has been an Awakening” guy?
David: I keep thinking of the Navigators from Dune for some reason (because they creeped me out)
Jay: I don’t remember if that’s confirmed to be him or everyone assumes it
Sarah: I think that was confirmed to be him, yes
David: yeah, I think that’s confirmed
David: plus he’s been identified as a darksider
David: he probably tells that quote to the Knights of Red, or to Kylo. it’s very “the Son of Skywalker is alive”
Sarah: Maybe he’s a Thrawn by any other name
Rocky: I do hope we see a Chiss somewhere in the ST
David: so we have a darksider trying to resurrect the Empire, a New Republic unaware of the danger, and a Resistance more than aware (or a NR aware of the danger but unwilling to do anything publically because, dunno, they are a legitimate government)
Sarah: We’ve also got Max von Sydow in the cast, who I keep forgetting about. We know nothing about him
David: oh yes! very true!
Rocky: This is all a good setup for lots of political intrigue, which I bet will be told more in books than in movies
Jay: I just hope the Empire doesn’t fold up overnight
Jay: it should take a while to get to the TFA situation
Sarah: I think it’ll hold on for a while
Sarah: The teaser chapter from Aftermath implies that, at least in my opinion
Jay: though I think we can at least basically be certain the Empire is not the FO
Rocky: I liked how the decaying Empire was handled in the early Bantam books. a serious threat, but with lots of infighting and a few warlords, some of whom are more competent than others
David: OR we only have First Order and Resistance, and in that case… I don’t think how it would work out. maybe Coop’s idea of galactic anarchy? and this generation are the ones to unify the galaxy under a Really New Republic?
Jay: in-fighting is likely, though I hope they wouldn’t rely on it as an explanation for why the NR took Coruscant so quickly
Jay: the fall of Coruscant deserves to be some sort of event series
Sarah: Yeah Rocky, I’m reading the X Wing books right now and I like that portrayal of the post-RotJ situation
Jay: novels and comics together
David: …if it ever happens
David: darn, this is so exciting!
Sarah: True, we don’t even know who holds Coruscant now
David: anything could happen!
Jay: you mean if the Empire is actually still around in TFA?
Jay: Empire v. Resistance v. FO?
Sarah: I…..doubt that. Casuals fans would be like “But they destroyed the Empire in RotJ, why are they still in power?”
David: maybe it’s destroyed by the Galactic Peeler superweapon! we don’t know a thing! and I love it!
Jay: yeah, it’s not very cinematic
David: yeah, not very likely. the Empire has to die before TFA
Jay: it’s fun for boring politics and history nerds
Rocky: as long as we find out how it died!
Sarah: Haha yup
David: I bet we will
Jay: we all are
Jay: that’s why we’re chatting about this
David: and hopefully this time it will be coordinated storytelling and not… not what we had before
Jay: yeah, which was DE and TTT not talking to each other
Jay: with WEG and Stackpole picking up the pieces
Sarah: The fact that they have the story group now makes me believe the storyline will be more streamlined
David: and the last legitimate Emperor being Xandel Carivus
David: oh yeah
Jay: yeah, it kills me to date the death of the Empire with Carivus
Jay: actually that brings up a question
Jay: do we want to see any post-ROTJ emperors?
David: I’d rather not
Jay: whether in control of the majority of the remnants or emperors in name only
Rocky: please no
David: I’m okay with warlords and whatnot
Rocky: lots of people who try to be Emperor, but no one who takes the title or succeeds in it
Jay: So basically we’re all just saying “do Bantam again”
David: but Palpatine’s line should die with him
Sarah: I’d rather have warlords than someone proclaiming themself emperor
Jay: no reason you couldn’t have both
David: well, I didn’t mind the warlord scenario. I thought it was pretty great!
Jay: warlords were by definition not serving the Imperial government
Jay: but being their own separate fiefdoms
David: Mas Amedda as a Regent?
Jay: the Empire was ruled by Pestage, Isard, and Dangor in turn until the Emperor returned — not a one of them officially took the throne
Sarah: True. Warring imperial officers then, all trying to grab power and rule the Empire
Jay: and also, someone proclaiming themselves emperor could actually splinter the Empire further
Jay: as everyone else says “nuh-uh!” and “why you?” and breaks away
Rocky: yeah, they were very firmly not willing to declare themselves Emperor
Sarah: Further fracturing and weakening them
David: it could be like the taifas in the Spanish Reconquista. a central entity that’s basically a rebranded Empire and several small satrapies around it
David: see, I wouldn’t like a new Emperor… but I’d like to see WHY there’s not a new Emperor
Jay: the Imperial Mutiny in Legends started with Dangor and the Imperial Advisors trying to make one of themselves emperor, with the military and everything else intervening to fight over it
Jay: so we know Aftermath has some sort of summit of Imperial leaders
Jay: I strongly suspect they’ll have their summit, and nobody will agree
David: ah the Imperial Mutiny. such a murky retcon, but so cool
Jay: and that’ll have some sort of ramifications
Jay: my very use of the term Imperial Mutiny also betrays my allegiances in that matter
David: Aftermath is a trilogy now, right
Rocky: I would definitely like to see what the Empire does when they lose their Emperor, Vader, and a bunch of good people at Endor
David: a lot of things can happen
Sarah: We’ve got thirty years to explore between ROTF and TFA
David: I’m hoping for at least one decade of peace, though
Jay: I can see things falling apart very quickly
Jay: before the Empire gets its shit together, if it does
Jay: a lot of outlying systems breaking off, other things breaking off
Jay: but if the NR keeps up a constant pressure
Jay: who knows, maybe Jakku IS the straw that breaks the camel’s back?
Jay: I just hope it’s not all over that quickly
Jay: we have 30 years to work with
David: I also wonder how the NR is going to work now that we know how the OR was
Rocky: how much do they know about OR and the decay of the OR
Sarah: I wonder if the NR will idealize the OR to the detriment
Sarah: Sort of like how we’re theorizing the FO idealising the Empire
David: Supreme Chancellor Mothma? New Judicial Fleet?
David: or Supreme Chancellor Ackbar (shout out to Admiral Nick, here)
Jay: yeah will they follow PT models or not?
Jay: they’re not PT heavy but I don’t think they’ll ignore it completely
David: I think the Chancellor title is almost a given
Jay: for better or worse, the PT OR is the OR
David: even casuals use it often
Jay: there won’t be a chief of state
Jay: iirc also the Leia comic called Mothma “Chancellor”
David: oh right
Sarah: Oh that’s true
David: i had forgotten about that
Rocky: hopefully we also get to see how the NR forms
Rocky: at some point
Jay: I never forget anything about Mothma.
David: I kind of wish they give Mothma some legitimacy to claim that title
Jay: Mothma has no legitimacy!
Jay: she’s a bitter senator upset she lost an election
Jay: and is launching a military coup against the lawful government
Jay: she is a caudilla, nothing more!
David: maybe she would’ve been the elected Chancellor hadn’t Palps ignored the two terms limit, and she rejects the results of that election
Jay: there was a crisis going on shut up
David: hey, I don’t care how flimsy it is, but I want something. anything
David: Chancellor in Exile Mothma!
Jay: anyway the whole point of the Rebellion is that it is illegitimate. They’re a revolution, not a counter-revolution
Rocky: I hope she doesn’t die in her sleep like in Legends
Rocky: ^ very true about the Rebellion
Rocky: maybe they have trouble becoming a legit government
Sarah: Ooh I hadn’t thought of it that way before
David: hey, Palpatine used murder and deception to become Emperor, and you don’t see me calling him illegitimate
Jay: maybe the Core won’t want to join them
Jay: that’s out of universe info!
Jay: actually, I wonder if Mothma knows
Jay: Bail surely knows, thanks to the Jedi
Sarah: Bail’s dead though
Jay: yes but presumably he and Mothma had at least chatted when they formed their Rebellion
Sarah: Yeah but still, it just be her word
David: the Outer Rim seem more important for the Rebel Alliance now that they were in Legends, thanks to Free Ryloth and the Onderon guerrilla
Sarah: Maybe there’s still a lot of anti-Jedi sentiment in the galaxy
Jay: the old EU knew nothing about the foundation of the Empire and the Clone Wars, but the new post-ROTJ EU could be different
Jay: Sarah, I do appreciate your patriotism
Jay: it is noted.
David: (and I love that Ultimate Star Wars made one of the pilots in Yavin an Onderonian)
Jay: Lothal too
David: oh yeah, that too
Jay: the Rebellion seems to be a Rim-born movement way more than it was in Legends
Sarah: Do we know if Jakku is Outer Rim?
Jay: which I am very happy with.
David: me too
David: and I adore Cham Syndulla, so extra happy
Rocky: well, my articles on galactic cartography- the Rim is a big place and there’re tons of unexplored or poorly explored areas
Jay: I *think* Abrams said it was in the Outer Rim at SWCA
Sarah: well in-universe the Outer Rim is often the most disenfranchised and exploited
Jay: but I was half conscious and too much excite and BB-8
David: I’d say Outer Rim, yes
Sarah: That was Palpatine’s and Plagueis’ whole gambit in Legends, that they’d play the extravagance of the Core against the Mid and Outer Rims
Rocky: the Outer Rim is so out there and not always part of the galaxy, that it’s a great place for rebellions and things like that
Rocky: and I hope they maintain that
David: but wait. maybe it’s in First Order territory, if we are assuming the Resistance are a guerrilla force against them.
Sarah: So it would make sense that the Rebellion would start out in the poorer sections of the galaxy
Jay: that the Core would be opulent and pampered under the Empire, while the Rim would be exploited
David: if the First Order Rim-based?
David: wouldn’t that be ironic
David: …ironic and relevant
Jay: and then when the Rebellion arose, the Empire would say “look at all those Rimward barbarians coming to steal your monies!”
David: the rise of fascism among the poor parts of the galaxy
Jay: (which is basically how FFG put it in Force and Destiny)
Rocky: that’s a really good way to put it
Jay: yeah, the FO — if it’s home-grown — can’t be a Coreward movement I think
Jay: it would have to be a bunch of poor, radicalized people who are not getting what they need under the NR
Jay: and so who think the answer is dictatorship
David: yeah, agreed
Rocky: because they’re so out there in the Rim that it’s super easy to lose track of people
Sarah: So basically we’re back to space Hitler taking power then
Rocky: “the Republic has no authority out here”
Rocky: if they’re making the Nazi comparison, yes
Jay: maybe they’re a bunch of humans who are upset that the aliens are getting integrated into the galaxy again
Jay: “remember during the Empire, all of us humans had jobs!”
David: maybe more The New Rebellion than Bacta War?
Rocky: (speaking of Legends books I loved)
Jay: “now I work a dead-end job for a Togrutan who wants to fire me!”
David: poor Finn bought into the First Order rethoric
David: Snoke is such a good public speaker…
David: always going “HAAAvvEE YYoouUUUU FFFFELT iiiiTTTTT”
Rocky: bringing in all the disenfranchised beings from the Rim
David: (I’m beyond excited that a stormtrooper deserter is one of the main characters, ngl)
Rocky: and maybe a few older people who miss the old Empire because the Empire made the trains run on time
Sarah: Maybe that’s Max von Sydow
Jay: well-played, sir!
David: *tips hat*
David: I think Snoke is confirmed to be Andy Serkis
Jay: mo-cap tho, the voice could be Sydow maybe?
Sarah: Snoke is confirmed to be Serkis
Jay: I have no idea what Serkis sounds like
Sarah: I meant that Sydow is the grumpy old man who misses the clockwork precision of the EMpire
Jay: “Max von Sydow as…. random grumpy man”
Jay: I like it
David: I’m assuming Von Sydow doesn’t play a particularly important character. we would know by now. unless he’s a secret character kind of type, ofc
David: ha, I could see him as a nostalgic
Sarah: Maybe someone like Tarkin: played by a veteran actor but dies in the first movie and ultimately isn’t THAT important to the plot
Jay: maybe he’s a nostalgic that thinks the First Order isn’t good enough to be the Empire
Rocky: hm, interesting
David: oh true. could be a tarkin-like character. maybe for the resistance, for a twist
Rocky: I do hope we run into people who remember what the old Empire was like, for better or worse
David: because I like that Hux is young and in charge, reinforces the neonazi look
Sarah: Yes, agreed.
David: yeah, I wonder what makes Finn change his allegiance
Sarah: Maybe Finn discovers he’s Force sensitive?
David: (I mean, I know a bit, because I’m not spoiler free, but just vaguely)
Jay: I’ve always been assuming it’s that village murdering on Jakku?
Jay: because we see that scene in the second trailer where he like, rips off the helmet
Sarah: Perhaps the Empire/First Order is still killing Force sensitives
Jay: and he looks sick to his stomach
David: yeah, that was my original theory too
Sarah: Yeah it’s actually probably likely that he defects due to witnessing some sort of atrocity
David: witnessing… or feeling
Sarah: That too.
Jay: but would he recognize it?
David: finding out you are Force-sensitive while you are in the middle of a massacre… that can’t be cool
Jay: oh I see
Jay: yes, still in the middle of it
David: it’s fun how excited we are by the possibilities of TFA, honestly
Sarah: there’s so many directions it could go
Rocky: I do like all the empty space
David: a part of me wants everything to be completely unexpected
David: Leia married Lando and fathered Finn? I’ll buy that!
David: …oh God, tomorrow someone is going to start ‘shipping Landeia, right?
Sarah: that would be worth the fandom meltdown
Rocky: the fandom will probably have a meltdown no matter what happens
Sarah: True. Either from excitement or not having their expectations met
David: it’s never going to be enough for the “if it’s not identical to what we got in Legends, it’s bad” contingent
David: we were supposed to be talking about the political scenario, and we ended up talking about TFA in general. good sign, I think
David: we are intrigued by the characters
Sarah: And the fact that we basically know nothing makes it fun to try and fill in the holes
David: even Poe Dameron, who seems to be a Top Gun douchebag, is intriguing
Rocky: speaking of characters I’m excited to learn about, Captain Phasma
Jay: I want to learn about Phasma
David: ohhhh yes
Sarah: I desperately want her to be the Empire’s pop culture propaganda figure
Sarah: Comics of her punching Luke
David: and I want to keep seeing Andi@StarWars.com correcting fans about her gender
Rocky: like, a ST version of Face Loran, maybe?
Sarah: TV serials about her adventures
Sarah: Or an in-universe version of Captain America
David: I hope her role is hefty
Sarah: Yes. I hope she doesn’t pull a Maul and die at the end of the first movie
Rocky: she had better not
David: General Hux is the only character I don’t give a crap about. I mean, I’m glad he’s there, but whatever
David: British evil general. been there, seen that.
Rocky: might be a character we start liking more later on
Rocky: or a character designed for us to love to hate
David: Phasma and Kylo… they are unknown quantities
Jay: Hux could be the Tarkin
Jay: all i care about is his jacket
David: just like desert scavenger Rey or former stormtrooper lightsaber-wielding Finn
Sarah: Yeah, we still need our mustache twirling villain after all
Jay: now that we’ve seen it, he’s expendible
Rocky: we need expendable villains
Jay: also expendable
David: i hope he bites it, and not Phasma
Rocky: no really! especially in a galaxy that might have had a lot of political problems
David: someone has to die at the end of the movie
Rocky: expendable villains may be necessary
Rocky: (not phasma please)
Sarah: I agree.
David: there is no resolution unless there’s MURDER!
David: rule #1 of action movies!
Sarah: Kylo’s PROBABLY in it for the long haul but who knows about Phasma and Hux
David: yeah, his face is everywhere, but… I would have thought the same about Maul before TPM
David: do we want to talk about the Knights of Ren, probably the most WTF info from the EW article?
Sarah: Only if we promise not to do any Monty Python jokes
Rocky: bring me a shrubbery.
Jay: I would love it if Kylo survived but was a complete doofus and non-entity
Sarah: “lookout we got a badass over here”
Rocky: I’m looking forward to non-Jedi and Sith Force-users
David: I think (hope) they are a reworking of the Knights of Sith from one of the early drafts
David: I mean… they named the base “Starkiller Base”, after all. they’ve looked at the drafts…
David: the lightsaber thugs that do the Emperor’s bidding
David: er, the Supreme Leader’s bidding
Sarah: I’m curious about the fact that apparently when you join the Knights, you change your last name to Ren
Sarah: I wonder if “Kylo” is a similar sort of title or if it’s his actual name
Sarah: Or a pseudonym
David: yeah, the Darth system all over again
Jay: Hux’s coat was manufactured by Ralphlau Ren
Rocky: they have fragments of info on the old Sith and they try to adapt some of it into the Knights of Ren?
Sarah: I could see that
David: and that makes you wonder if Kylo is related to one of the new characters, one of the big three, both, or whatever. I love secret identities
David: lol @ Ralphlau Ren
Sarah: They hinted at Kylo being related to a main character in the EW article
David: sometimes I wonder if JJ is withholding the last names of Rey and Finn just to troll
David: oh really? I missed that
Sarah: I think they did, let me double check
Rocky: my personal theory on Rey’s last name: maybe she doesn’t know it
David: and Finn’s last name is revealed to be Galfridian
Rocky: like, maybe Rey has been isolated/away from her family for so long that she doesn’t know her real last name or doesn’t remember it
David: that’d be cool. hey, maybe she’s our new Revan
Sarah: Okay jk, the EW article hinted that Kylo might be related to someone we know but it wasn’t a direct quote from abrams, just editorializing
David: maybe she’s a descendant of the people that crashed the star destroyer
Sarah: also NO they need to give revan a rest
Rocky: grumbles about revan being canonically a man
David: probably the daughter of a marooned Rebel. and that’s why that bit with her offering Finn her hand is a big deal
Rocky: I like that idea
David: they can go so many places with all of this
Sarah: Someone on tumblr came up with a scenario where she’s the granddaughter of Sabe, Padme’s decoy from TPM
Rocky: tumblr probably has lots of good TFA conspiracy theories
David: “my name is… Rey Mothma” *Jay gets up and leaves the theater*
Sarah: Can you imagine though
David: oh yes
David: I love the idea of the Knights of Ren. they can be like what the Shadow Academy could have been
Sarah: I wonder if they’re all Sith fanboys or if Kylo’s just special
Jay: if Rey is the daughter of Mon Mothma I am swearing off Star Wars
David: the burnt Vader mask!
Rocky: the burnt Vader mask was so creepy
Sarah: It was SO GREAT though
David: but that’s a good point. maybe Kylo is the only Vader-fanboy
David: and the other Knights look at him funny
Sarah: Maybe the Knights of Ren are more of a Neutral Jedi type group. Not necessarily light-side aligned, but not Sith either
Sarah: So Kylo’s kind of a renegade there
David: that would be unexpected, certainly
David: meaning I like it
Sarah: I’m probably overcomplicating it too, haha
Sarah: But it would be a cool twist
Jay: …maybe the Knights of Ren are the new Jedi Order that Luke founded.
David: haha that’s kiiiind of where I wanted to get with the Shadow Academy bit
David: Luke is a hermit because his students have rejected his training and gone all X-Force on him
David: (sorry, X-Men reference, I promise it’s the last one)
Rocky: luke realizes he doesn’t know how to train Jedi after they all go wrong
David: they all agree and one morning tell him: “master, you are full of sith”
Sarah: That was a terrible pun
David: “we are going to Ren, we hear it’s great in the summer”
David: I try
Jay: I still like the idea of them being a LARPer group
Jay: the Knights of Ren Faire
Jay: would go with Kylo’s fanboyism and homebuilt lightsaber
Rocky: trying really hard to be real dark siders but mostly being real laughingstocks
Jay: more like
Jay: dork side of the Force
David: well, I’m going to have to leave soon. my wife is here with ice cream, and I can’t say no to that
Sarah: Yeah I’ve got some work to finish up tonight.
Jay: I think that’s as good a place as any to end
Sarah: This was good though
David: so, to sum it up?
Jay: THE EMPIRE IS VICTORIOUS ON ALL FRONTS
Sarah: Galactic Contra, Space Hitler, everyone’s a renegade
David: we have no idea, but every single possibility excites us?
Jay: also all hail Rae Sloane
Jay: …sorry that may have all just been in my head.
David: Empress Sloane OH WAIT